Curse

Riot Narita · Nov 20, 2008, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Don't tell me you wouldn't even care if that happened to you. I won't believe it.

Actually it has happened to me, I have a newish character that I've just taken through Nightfall and EotN, and only recently started in Tyria. And no, I don't care.

So many things have been added to the game over the years, many came too late for me to take advantage of (oh well), many did not (cool!), many stopped me doing certain things (it was good while it lasted).

Each time, take what you can get, ask nicely/beg if you want changes (but don't start with the "I am ENTITLED to..." nonsense), complain if there is REALLY something to complain about (rare)... and ultimately move on, get back to playing the game.

Do I not care because I am a jaded "veteran"? I don't think so - in the early days, when GW was all shiny and new, I repeated missions again and again - because I failed them... or missed the bonus... or to help someone else... or to cap an Elite... or just because it was fun. I often learned something when I repeated stuff. So even as a noob, I didn't think anything of it - I was in no particular hurry, and I wasn't like "omg wtf anet is making me grind!"

Gill Halendt · Nov 20, 2008, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hissy

move on, get back to playing the game.

Why do you think anyone stopped playing the game because of this update?

I did not. Actually, I got my 13th Protector of Tyria just yesterday - and I was able to fill in just 5 or 6 missions in the book, since I was halfway through when the update went live. I started my 15th PvE character and I'm gonna do the missions again. I have fun doing them. I would have done them even without books. This doesn't prevent me and players like me to move criticism about this whole operation tough. Having fun doing something doesn't mean you can't think about what you've done already.

As I've said before, I didn't mean to comment about the retroactivity of books. As soon as I realized that books weren't retroactive I moved on. I thought about how nice it could have been for me, but that was it.

What pushed me into this discussion is this "Life is unfair, this is none of my business, doesn't affect me directly, stop whining" feeling you get in this thread. I've given up, but not because "life is unfair" and so we should get a grip... I've given up just because I think there's no point anymore, since developers will hardly care about it.

I still think most of the detractors here are just as selfish and childish as they say complainers are. They're just gloating over a disadvantage hitting category they clearly despise, that's it.

Riot Narita · Nov 20, 2008, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Why do you think anyone stopped playing the game because of this update?

No, I'd be amazed if anybody quit the game because of this update. Sure, they could have made books retroactive, and I'd benefit from that as much as anybody. But who would quit the game because of that, when we still got stuff for free, and there were so many great improvements?

Agree with most of the rest of your post.

Personally I have no problem with people lobbying for retroactive books. It amounts to "I want more please" or "I want a piece of that", but that's fine in itself if people are honest about it.

What irks me is when they start blowing things out of all proportion and pretending it's NOT "I want more". Since "I am greedy" is not likely to persuade Anet, they try to justify their requests with talk of "entitlement", "unfairness", failure to deliver on what they perceive as the "purpose" of the update (or not delivering enough of it), A-net is "forcing me to grind" etc etc. Which is all rubbish in my opinion.

Gill Halendt · Nov 20, 2008, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hissy

What irks me is when they start blowing things out of all proportion and pretending it's NOT "I want more". Since "I am greedy" is not likely to persuade Anet, they try to justify their requests with talk of "entitlement", "unfairness", failure to deliver on what they perceive as the "purpose" of the update (or not delivering enough of it), A-net is "forcing me to grind" etc etc. Which is all rubbish in my opinion.

Well, I agree...

Speaking personally, I admitedly "would have liked more" (mind you I don't WANT it, if I don't get it I won't die), yet I would have liked something that it seems pretty reasonable and fair to ask to me, nothing more.

I don't think anyone ever pretended it was nothing but this - scroll pages and you'll see the thread is full of "All we want is factions!" posts -, but I still think there's really nothing wrong with it.

Talking about "greed" is just a bit far-fetched. Greedy would be a player asking for credit for ANYTHING he/she has done in the past. Look, I could max all of the rep titles with most of my characters if I was to get a entry in a book for any time I've cleared a mission to help someone. See if I ever dare asking anything like that!

This is a game, we play for fun, but games have objectives and tasks, and getting them accomplished is what makes the game fun. Are we to blame for this? Because we'd like to get something we could have got if this update was introduced when it actually would have made sense? I don't think so.

BTW, as much as this world is unfair, people in this world are greedy. Nobody does anything without expectations, anything else is pure utopia. So there's nothing surprising in people asking for more. This also applies to developers saying they "love their playerbase", confectioning an update to make them happy. That's just their job, they did what they get paid for and their interest is to keep the game alive for a while before GW2 is ready (if it will ever be, that's it...). While they're at it, they made the game even more welcoming for new players (who will probably be there ang get GW2 as well) by offering huge discounts on the campaigns when purchased alltogether and now by breathing new life into this game with the book system.

So there's really no ingratitude into all of this. It's a game of give and take, Anet is not a non-profit institution, and we're nothing but their customers. It's all of their interest to keep their customers satisfied.

Fril Estelin · Nov 20, 2008, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

people in this world are greedy. Nobody does anything without expectations, anything else is pure utopia.

You're over-generalising.

If Anet grants retroactive books with faction rewards only, for the sake of fairness, how could they then defend themselves in the future about, for example (suggested by Avarre on the other thread), not giving PvP players retroactive Zkeys for their Balth faction?

And I'm sure we can find other examples. So when does this stop? Obviously, when everyone is happy and not complaining/requesting anything. But there's no guarantee that people will stop and not start requesting more stuff (look at the Sardelac Sanitarium Guru subforum to convince yourself of that).

(so the next question is, given Anet's limited resources, how do we prioritise these changes? I mean each person would want the rewards that maximise their own game experience...)

P.S.: before anyone categorises me as "in favor" or "against", please read my previous messages.

Sjeng · Nov 20, 2008, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

If Anet grants retroactive books with faction rewards only, for the sake of fairness, how could they then defend themselves in the future about, for example (suggested by Avarre on the other thread), not giving PvP players retroactive Zkeys for their Balth faction?

Easy: Z-keys would give you an enourmous monetary boost, whereas faction only boosts a title. It would be unfair to hand out a lot of expensive keys in one big bang to this part of the playerbase and not give anything to the other part. If you earn it steadily, then np.
FACTION rewards from the retroactive books *without* the money won't give anyone advantages, except for a reduced need to grind for a title.

Why anyone would be against that is beyond me, except if they're elitist selfish snobs who don't want others to gain a title they earned "the hard way". This is a game, play nice kids! Don't be envious over a game, that's just sad.

Shasgaliel · Nov 20, 2008, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sjeng

Easy: Z-keys would give you an enourmous monetary boost, whereas faction only boosts a title. It would be unfair to hand out a lot of expensive keys in one big bang to this part of the playerbase and not give anything to the other part. If you earn it steadily, then np.
FACTION rewards from the retroactive books *without* the money won't give anyone advantages, except for a reduced need to grind for a title.

So If Anet was not offering money for books then it would be much easier to make them retroactive. Both threads go to this conclusion but what about prophecies books? EXP only?

Fril Estelin · Nov 20, 2008, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sjeng

Don't be envious over a game, that's just sad.

You're right, but people think that asking for more after this great update is exactly that (envy from veterans because new players get things they didn't get).

Regarding Zkeys, you could argue the same point: give them the corresponding Zkeys on their Zrank title, or unlock everything on their account, or ... . The point was not to show one example that people could agree or disagree with, but simply that the list can go on, and on, etc.

Olof · Nov 20, 2008, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

That's grind reduction. And that's why compaining about free book faction is stupid: because free faction was literally raining, all you had to do is to go outside to get wet.

I have already vanquished every area, why on earth would I want to go and vanquish more?

Don't get me started on retrospective faction rewards for areas alread vanquished before the update.....

Sjeng · Nov 20, 2008, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

You're right, but people think that asking for more after this great update is exactly that (envy from veterans because new players get things they didn't get).

That's not envy I think, that's a feeling of unwillingness to have to grind VQ/missions they already finished. It has nothing to do with newer players getting it straight away. They'll have to do the same for the max title, they just haven't started yet. It's just people saying: "Look Anet, you're rewarding people for completing a campaign now, and that's really nice and all, and we wouldn't even care if it was just XP and gold rewards, but you're also rewarding FACTION which we need for a TITLE that takes a LOT of GRINDING. And you promised us to do something about all this grinding. And face it, we'll have to complete those books many many times to max those titles (L/K), so the 1 time we already did it won't matter that much to you perhaps, but it would surely reduce the grind for US, so could you pretty please grant us the faction gain from doing this campaign once in NM/HM?"

I realize you could just as easy turn this around and say: "okay well, what's doing Factions one time more or less if you need to do it 80 times to max the title?". But then I'd say: 1 time less is still 1 time less. No harm in asking is there? If not, well, then so be it.

I just don't see the harm in asking for the bit of extra faction for work already done. It's not like it'll give you instant max title. And even if it did, who cares? Only envious people with the title at max already would care :P (and I don't care 'bout them xD)

Gill Halendt · Nov 20, 2008, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

If Anet grants retroactive books with faction rewards only, for the sake of fairness, how could they then defend themselves in the future about, for example (suggested by Avarre on the other thread), not giving PvP players retroactive Zkeys for their Balth faction?

I wish developers could, for the sake of fairness. Yet they didn't just because they couldn't, since they haven't kept track of what players have done with Balthazar Faction in the past. Remember what Linsey said? Guess so, since you've been quoting her at least twice. That's about it.

There's no technical reason for those books not to be retroactive tough, they didn't just because they didn't want to (economy being the debatable answer), which is what it making people upset. It's a whole different story, comparison makes little to no sense.

DarkNecrid · Nov 20, 2008, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

I wish developers could, for the sake of fairness. Yet they didn't just because they couldn't, since they haven't kept track of what players have done with Balthazar Faction. Remember what Linsey said? Guess so, since you've been quoting her at least twice. That's it.

The game does track how much Balthazar Faction you've accumulated, as someone has mentioned before.

Fril Estelin · Nov 20, 2008, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sjeng

That's not envy I think, that's a feeling of unwillingness to have to grind VQ/missions they already finished. It has nothing to do with newer players getting it straight away. They'll have to do the same for the max title, they just haven't started yet. It's just people saying: "Look Anet, you're rewarding people for completing a campaign now, and that's really nice and all, and we wouldn't even care if it was just XP and gold rewards, but you're also rewarding FACTION which we need for a TITLE that takes a LOT of GRINDING. And you promised us to do something about all this grinding. And face it, we'll have to complete those books many many times to max those titles (L/K), so the 1 time we already did it won't matter that much to you perhaps, but it would surely reduce the grind for US, so could you pretty please grant us the faction gain from doing this campaign once in NM/HM?"

Exactly what I was saying here. But this is not the way a few people have requested this. Honestly, I'm not sure whether there aren't greedy people using the excuse of fairness to get more (but I won't over-generalise and say that most people did).

Quote:

I realize you could just as easy turn this around and say: "okay well, what's doing Factions one time more or less if you need to do it 80 times to max the title?". But then I'd say: 1 time less is still 1 time less. No harm in asking is there? If not, well, then so be it.

But that's exactly what I was saying above: people may ask for the other 30 times they did complete this or that, but then Anet will simply say that it's not technically feasible (as they didn't record successive missions successes); then people may ask about the areas they VQ'd as Olof said; then it's going to give the feeling that asking for more is perfectly normal, because we all have to get something and this thing has to be of the same "value". It's a never-ending story, and I'm really even wondering whether anyone from Anet will read this argument (if not, it's just a matter of ourselves, GW players, changing the way we perceive things, not the things changing...)

Gill Halendt · Nov 20, 2008, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

The game does track how much Balthazar Faction you've accumulated, as someone has mentioned before.

It does.

But it doesn't keep track of what you've done with it, be it skill or upgrade unlocks or nothing at all.

How could they say?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

But that's exactly what I was saying above: people may ask for the other 30 times they did complete this or that, but then Anet will simply say that it's not technically feasible (as they didn't record successive missions successes);

And when they do, Linsey will tell them to stop asking, because it's not technically feasible. Period.

Yet ONE book is. Not only it's possible, it's absolutely REASONABLE, since that appened before with EotN books. Otherwise, books to me look just like a pitiful attempt to spin this out ("Veterans are quitting, let's give them a reason to play the same game over and over again!!"), a cheap way to "add content" to the game while GW2 gets increasingly vaporware-ish day by day.

trankle · Nov 20, 2008, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by hallomik

The only good argument for the decision they made was the potential impact on the economy - something Anet easily could have mitigated. Nearly all of the other arguments I've read, I am sorry to say, are ad hominem. They are criticizing the complainers for being ungrateful. That is simply not an argument in support of what Anet has done. It is a personal attack. That isn't to say that the complainers haven't done the same thing, but sprinkled throughout the QQ'ing are valid arguments against.

I wish the "pro" side would offer why what Anet did was a good idea. Saying the complainers are "greedy" or "lazy" or deficient in some other way is getting old.

Good post.

I am a veteran player who would benefit pretty handsomely if the books were made retroactive. And if Anet chose to do that, I'd accept the rewards gladly.

That said, I don't think their decision was unfair. And the reason is one that I think a lot of folks here are willing to overlook:

Every single mission I did pre-update had an advertised reward. After every mission, I received the advertised reward. There was no promise of future benefits whatsoever. And knowing all of this, I completed the missions. Last Wednesday, there was no thought in my head that the rewards I had gotten for completing these missions and titles were unfair. Why would that change Thursday?

Another thing to note is that this does not discriminate against veteran players. As a vet, I have every opportunity to earn the new rewards. No mission is locked to me. I might not have the desire to do missions again, but that is my perogative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

NOBODY WANTS THE MONEY
NOBODY WANTS THE MONEY
NOBODY WANTS THE MONEY
NOBODY WANTS THE MONEY
NOBODY WANTS THE MONEY

We want only Faction.

This, by the way, is a load of crap. Say what you mean to say: you want the reward that most benefits you.

I'm sure there are plenty of players, be they players without Factions/Nightfall, or players who aren't interested in Allegiance title tracks, or players who are just plain broke, who would very much like to have the money. Please don't presume to speak for them.

I find it funny that in the name of "fairness", some posters are willing to negotiate away the rewards that don't benefit them for the ones that do. Some players would be happy to get the experience and money, but not the faction. If that went down, would you concede that Anet had done the fair thing, made a fair compromise?

If not, then drop the "we don't want money, we just want what's fair" argument. That really is selfish.

Avarre · Nov 20, 2008, 02:22 PM // 14:22

I didn't get retroactively added faction when the faction screen displayed all gained faction, whereas previously it simply vanished when you were maxed (and you were maxed if you PvP'd at all). I didn't get retroactive chest title or wisdom points when Factions came out either. I certainly didn't get retroactive loot from clearing UW and FoW before the end chest changes, or from the change in style of the HoH chest.

I didn't get retroactive experience for all the Prophecies elites I capped before the xp bonus for elite capping was given either, removing a great number of potential skill points that I had theoretically 'earned' and forcing me to grind if I wanted to maintain uax in pve. And unlike the others, as some have argued, this one had clearly tracked stats at the point of implementation.

People are getting upset from the same old entitlement issues that encouraged stupid changes to PvE for years. It's not a necessary change, and for a game currently in the phase of trying to artificially extend gameplay through grind, there's certainly no incentive to give the players more.

Riot Narita · Nov 20, 2008, 02:30 PM // 14:30

A quality post, Trankle

Shayne Hawke · Nov 20, 2008, 02:39 PM // 14:39

One retroactive book for each mode would work for Factions and Nightfall, but I'm not sure what to do about Prophecies. To say that getting a retroactive book would require Protector/Guardian would be asking more than you really need to earn the book in the first place, and there are easy ways of beating Prophecies without playing all of the missions.

If an easy solution could be found, I wouldn't mind one retroactive book for each mode of full playthrough in any campaign. However, it shouldn't be that big a deal, because as far as gold and experience go, there are better ways of getting both, and there are probably also faster ways as well for gaining Kurzick/Luxon faction, although the books provide a unique way of being able to advance both titles at once.

The real reason that books were introduced was to remove a small portion of grind by making a few larger rewards that could be obtained through playing the game. If you've already played through the game a few times, you should be at a point where that end reward isn't really that beneficial, and so you shouldn't be whining over it anyways (save Shiro's Return for Kurzick/Luxon faction, but there are still other fast(er?) methods of getting that faction).

Gill Halendt · Nov 20, 2008, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I didn't get retroactively added faction when the faction screen displayed all gained faction, whereas previously it simply vanished when you were maxed (and you were maxed if you PvP'd at all). I didn't get retroactive chest title or wisdom points when Factions came out either. I certainly didn't get retroactive loot from clearing UW and FoW before the end chest changes, or from the change in style of the HoH chest.

I didn't get retroactive experience for all the Prophecies elites I capped before the xp bonus for elite capping was given either, removing a great number of potential skill points that I had theoretically 'earned' and forcing me to grind if I wanted to maintain uax in pve. And unlike the others, as some have argued, this one had clearly tracked stats at the point of implementation.

I think you answered yourself.

Except the last one, all those are technically impossible. The XP bonus for caps was introduced much earlier in the game and didn't impact as many players as this update is doing now. Even so, I would have supported this.

Some changes could have been retroactive but weren't, some of them were and some people could have argued about them as well (think about how useless did the Rune of Absorption got), so?

Ate of DK · Nov 20, 2008, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by trankle

Say what you mean to say: you want the reward that most benefits you.

/threadwinner.

Absolutely true. IF they decide to make something retroactive I'd only be interested in the extra portion Luxon and Kurzicks faction. I'd gladly give up all the gold earnings for that.